(no subject)

[oakfarm]

 “Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.”

George Orwell. 

I have lived my whole life not knowing there's a different between nationalism and patriotism. Nor did I know that George Orwell hated nationalism and loved patriotism.

Comments

[jo]

I would quibble a bit about Orwell's definition of patriotism, specifically this bit: "devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world". I think it's possible to feel patriotic without necessarily believing one's country or way of life to be the best in the world. In fact, a true patriot would recognize that that one's country has flaws/could do some things better and would be constantly trying to improve things. To me, it's the nationalist that thinks they're the best in the world -- hence the need to impose it on others.

[cactus_rs]

Yeah, I would largely agree with this quibble.

Also, as an American, "patriot" has (for me) a meaning more or less equivalent to "nationalist." Orwell obviously had a different context for the word, writing as a Brit in the middle of the 20th century, so I understand that for him there's a distinction. For me . . . not so much.

So I lack a word to describe how I feel when the US (or Sweden, for that matter, since I'm finally properly Swedish) does something good and just and admirable.

[jo]

I totally get that. I'm Canadian, and Canadians aren't the most openly patriotic/nationalistic types, I think in large part because of our much more openly patriotic neighbours to the south! And nationalism in Canada for English Canadians tends to mostly evoke the French-Canadian separatist movement in Quebec, while in Quebec, a "patriote" is not unlike how you describe the use of patriot in the US.

My preferred quote is from Albert Camus: "And I should like to be able to love my country and still love justice. I don't want any greatness for it, particularly a greatness born of blood and falsehood. I want to keep it alive by keeping justice alive."

[oakfarm]

You’re right. Different political ideas have different definitions in different times and countries. You might very well know this better than me but the American use of the world “liberal” is one example, I think, it has nothing to do with classical liberalism. Fascism is also a word that has been used for different governments.

Finally proper Swedish. Double citizenship? Welcome.

[cactus_rs]

Double citizenship? Welcome.

Twice the democracy, twice the taxes!


the American use of the world “liberal” is one example, I think, it has nothing to do with classical liberalism.

oh God, probably. Among people I know it's essentially used as an identity marker (whether used as an insult or a point of pride depends on the person in question). No American, myself included, could give you a proper explanation of (for example) neo-liberalism or "liberal democracy"; it's just a term to identify the adherents of a particular political party.

[oakfarm]

I have a thought about that. It’s not like I often discuss politics online with Americans. But one or two times it has happened. The time I think about the American first noted that I was for Sweden and couldn’t know anything about her country. Then she called me “liberal”. I’m I taking that the wrong way if it that sounds Americacentric and arrogant to me? I know that I don’t understand US politics. She thought that if I’m not a conservative in the US sence of the word, I must be an American liberal. Like there’s only two political ideology in the world, both being American.

[oakfarm]

I do not like the phrase “best in the world” either. Also with the risk of being off topic. But your comment made me think of something. Even if we could say that country A objective is the best country in the world, we can assume there’s still room for improvement. Humans are not exactly perfect so even the best country should have flaws.